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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 17:57:19
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I've been in the garage again - here's what I've discovered:
- Even with the rack close to the crossmember the rack gearbox still fouls the clutch housing - it's too close to the engine.
- The Avenger crossmember is only a tiny bit wider than the Rapier one and it looks like it will bolt right on with just a little widening of the bolt holes in the crossmember.
- The suspension arm pivots on the Avenger crossmember are about 2.5" further out than Rapier ones; this means the rack gearbox is 2.5" further away from the engine; and that means it does not foul the clutch housing.
- The suspension arm pivots on the Avenger crossmember are about 1" higher - but this is not a problem as the suspension is lowered 1" and this just gets the suspension arm back to the normal angle.
- It looks like the Rapier lower suspension arms will bolt onto the Avenger crossmember (but they would have to be shortened by 2.5").
- The track rod end will have to be very close to the strut - like an Avenger one.
Without access to Avenger lower suspension arms and struts I can't get any further but looks like I might be able to do the following:
- Bolt on the Avenger crossmember.
- Use and standard Avenger rack and track rods
- Make new engine mounts, possibly by cutting the Rapier ones off the crossmember and welding them to the Avenger one.
- Use shortened Rapier suspension arms and custom made steering arms or perhaps use Avenger suspension arms and struts.
If Avenger rack and struts fit then Sunbeam Lotus ones should also fit as the Sunbeam Lotus uses a shortened Avenger floorpan.
The camber and castor angles aren't that different so it might be possible.
If I'm very lucky to only fabrication work would be making the new engine mounts and mounting the steering column.
So I need to get my hands on some more Avenger bits.
As a backup plan it seems that my spare steering box is in very good condition so this will get treated to some new bearings and seals at Kiley Clinton.
Here's some pictures of the crossmembers (the Rapier one is a scrap yard find) http://www.photobox.co.uk/1x9C7007/album/335602981?cid=tashare001 |
Edited by - 1922 on 13 Mar 2010 17:58:40 |
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 22:29:03
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Think its just us LOL!
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 13:20:36
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Jim you have inspired another thought.
Part of the reason that there is not enough room for the steering rack behind the wheels is that I am using the standard steering arms as a start point. If they are shorter then the rack can be further forward, I wonder...
Anyone know how long the steering arms (the ones that connect the strut to the track rod ends) are on an Avenger?
p.s. Is anyone else reading this - or is it just me and Jim? |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2010 : 13:56:02
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One of the problems with the "rack behind the wheels" is that that footwell is too close to the crossmember. The steering column would need to go through the floor between the clutch & brake pedals to get to the rack.
I think the "rack in front of the wheels" is possible but it would need major surgery to front of the sump. The sump is high at the back (to clear the crossmember) and low at the front. The front part would have to be moved forward, and the oil pump pickup would have to be extended to reach. It could be done, I think. I can't experiment further with the engine in.
I had an Avenger about twenty years ago and the general layout is very similar (apart from the rack & pinion) but none of the parts are interchangeable.
I have an Avenger cross-member and steering rack which I purchased to experiment with the rack and pinion idea. The crossmember is very similar to the Rapier one. The main differences are that is has the brackets for the steering rack at the back and the mount points for the lower suspension arms are several inches further apart. It might be possible to use the Avenger crossmember, suspension arms, struts and rack but I haven't got enough Avenger bits to try it. The Avenger rack is mounted directly to the back of the crossmember, so it must have much shorter steering arms (the ones the go backwards from the strut) than a Rapier.
The Chrysler/Talbot Sunbeam Lotus used an Avenger floor pan and running gear, which means competition parts are available.
My only worry with the Avenger was that the suspension all looked less substantial - but perhaps the Rapier is over-engineered.
I think the Ackermann will about the same provided that the rack is directly between the track-rod ends. If the steering rack in front of the crossmember then Ackermann decreases if the you move the rack forward of the track rod ends increases as you move the rack back behind the track rod ends (I've got a couple of good books that explain it all!). |
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2010 : 23:56:47
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Hi Derek,
I've been thinking in the shower LOL!
What about using a Mk2 Vauxhall Cavalier rack mounted where the rod that joins the steering box and idler box together? My idea is that the cav rack is a center takeoff so the rod that joins the steering and idler boxes on the rapier could be mounted to it and use the original track rods (suiltably modified) and steering arms. My only issue is that I dont have a car to look at to see if there is room or not to mount it.
As for your idea, could the sump not be modified and a new oil pickup pipe be made to go to the section of the sump that at the lowest point? Is it possiable to engineer more or less Ackermann into the steering geometry? I've never been able to get my brain round how steering keeps the angles of the wheels right!
Could an entire Avenger front end not be used, or are they very different under the bonnet? (again not having cars to look at is a mahoosive dissadvantage here!)
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 23:12:14
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Thanks Jim!
I've spent a couple of hours under the car this morning. Here is what I discovered:
- It looks like the steering arms can be reversed. This puts the ball joints very close to the brake calipers but there appears to be just enough room, if not then a bit of adjustment with an oxy-acetalene torch and a big hammer will do it.
- There looks to be just enough room for the track rods below the brake reaction rods, so it will be possible to connect the wheels to the steering rack.
- There is a clear path from the rack input shaft to the steering column between engine and engine mount, so it will be possile to connect the rack to the column.
- There is enough room for the steering rack's gearbox next to the engine.
- The rack will need to be narrow but it's only about 3 inches narrower than the Avenger rack I'm experimenting with, should be able to get a custom rack made by Titan Motorsport http://www.titan.uk.net/steering.php
Sounds good so far... but here's the bad news, the sump.
To mount the rack in the right place will foul the sump by at least 2 inches.
To modify the sump means shortening the oil pump pick up - I don't think there will be room.
To put the rack in front of the sump is tricky as the brake reaction rod mounts are in the way but, worse than that, moving the rack so far in front of the steering arms will screw up the steering geometry. The Rapier has almost no Ackermann to start with, if I put the rack that far forward it will get negative Ackermann, and that means toe-in on turns with lots of tyre scrub and unpleasant handling.
As for the other plan, I partly dismantled my spare steering box, and it looks pretty good inside. So this might be off to the engineers in Birmingham along with the box from my '46 Minx.
If only they'd put rack and pinion on in the first place  |
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 23:21:46
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Good luck! I don't know what else to say LOL
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 14:08:09
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That was my worry.
The fork/shaft will wear and so will the bearings and repairing these will help.
I was hoping that they could metal spray or hard chrome the worm and recut it, or weld on a new one.
But I will know more when I have talked to them again, which I will do, when I have taken my spare steering box to bits.
I've decided to look again at the steering rack idea.
It's not possible to put one behind the crossmember because to get the angles correct it will be too close to the footwell and bell-housing.
It might be possible to reverse the steering arms and put a rack in front of the crossmember.
If the sump can be avoided it's then a matter of calculating steering arm angles to get a reasonable Ackermann angle (toe out on turns) which might need some custom made steering arms. Then I just need a way to connect the column to the rack without getting snagged up on the engine mounts. This also opens up the possibility of power steering using modern electric or hydraulic electric components (from the car breakers).
If this can be done without mucking about with the front suspension then it's not that much work. The main difficulty with the standard suspension is that the pivots for the lower arms are close together, this means the rack body has be equally narrow (if the steering arms on the rack are not the same length as the suspension arms you will get toe-in and toe-out as you go over bumps).
Tape measure, pencil and calculator will be out again this weekend 
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2010 : 22:50:40
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Wouldn't the worm be the most worn component in a worn out box?
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 15:51:40
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I have just learned why a left hand drive steering column is no use.
All the internals will fit, and it will get rid of the vague steering.
But you will have to learn to drive all over again as you will need to turn the steering wheel the wrong way!
The thread of the worm on the end of the column is the other way (left-hand thread instead of right-hand thread or vice-versa). In hind-sight this suddenly seems obvious
So pursuing the Iran idea is not that useful as the other parts of the internals (the drop shaft and bearings) are repairable.
I have found an engineering company in Birminham named Kiley - Clinton that refurbish steering racks and steering boxes (see http://www.steering-racks.co.uk/). The guy I spoke to (Roger Clinton) used to work for Burman and sounds like he knows what he's talking about. They can repair everything except a worn worm, which is shame, but it's a start.
Next project - dismantle the steering box that's in the shed and see what's worn inside. |
Edited by - 1922 on 23 Feb 2010 13:48:10 |
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 23:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by 1922
I'll stick that one on my list of possible solutions.
It's easy to buy Mk1 Escort bits for rallying and racing, quick racks, springs etc etc so that could be a good solution.
No answer to my email to Iran - not that surprised.
I can't find any mention of Aussie hunters using different steering boxes - so I've no idea where I got that from.
Not given up yet - I will find a way to not have soggy steering!
I hope you do, its the only thing worrying me about rapier ownership 
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
Edited by - TurboZed on 12 Feb 2010 23:47:33 |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 14:15:24
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I'll stick that one on my list of possible solutions.
It's easy to buy Mk1 Escort bits for rallying and racing, quick racks, springs etc etc so that could be a good solution.
No answer to my email to Iran - not that surprised.
I can't find any mention of Aussie hunters using different steering boxes - so I've no idea where I got that from.
Not given up yet - I will find a way to not have soggy steering! |
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2010 : 22:38:51
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I emailed the chap and he came back with this reply:-
"Jim,
I have not used the original engine with rack and pinion, but I cant see there being a problem.
you need to use a set up off a mk1 escort with offset top mounts.
Hope this helps. Dave."
So it looks like he has changed the whole front end. I expect that cross member is Mk1 escort then.
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
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1922
United Kingdom
549 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2010 : 12:05:43
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Hmmm interesting.
The steering rack is in front the suspension arms, which means that the track rods etc will be in front the crossmember. Normally Rapier/Hunter steering gear is behind. So either the steering arms on the struts have been reversed somehow or it's not using Rapier/Hunter struts.
I think that the black painted cross-member is not Rapier either - it would normally have engine mounts (but these may have been removed) and I think that maybe the lower arm pivot points are too far apart (from memory they are normally a few inches inboard of the chassis legs).
Maybe the extra home-brew crossmember at the front is for different engine.
I had considered a similar scheme using Ford Sierra or Ford Capri crossmember, suspension arms, struts etc but it seemed a lot of work so I never pursued it. There was also once an idea about using the whole front and rear subframes and engine from an XJ6 - but that's another story.
So yes - it would be interesting to hear what he has done. |
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TurboZed
United Kingdom
94 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 17:52:12
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This might be of some interest Derek. I got this pic off an ebay advert for a 1/2 made sunbeam fastback convertable conversion. I can grab details of the sellar if you think its worth contacting him for info about the steering.
Regards,
Jim Gough
Looking for a fastback Rapier.... |
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Steering box
