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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2015 : 19:51:56
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Yes, the "purloined" engine has a cast iron head, as indeed the engine installed in the car also had. To be honest I want to merely get the car mobile, then look for improving it in the future!
The existing engine has the dipstick drilled into the block whereas the "new" replacement has the dipstick into a tube going into the side of the sump. Tomorrow, I'll reconfirm the numbers on the engines.
I really appreciate your help so far.
Thank you
jim |
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bigt80
United Kingdom
1052 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 15:03:23
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Hello, interesting thread & pruyter you are very knowledgeable on chassis/engine no's 
The club has a record of B3301123 & do indeed show it as an early Ser IV 1/1/64 Reg. In 2002 it was owned by a man in Hertfordshire & was originally Silver Grey Metallic all over with no two-tone paintwork on roof and stripe.
I too am not sure on the other engine, but it sounds like a Ser III Minx as they used the suffix HSO which using prutyter's naming convention would I think stand for Home Delivery, Saloon, Ordinary.
Incidentally, I think the valve layout on a CI head is different to ali one, not that, that is a problem, just something to bear in mind when doing clearances. Cheers. G. |
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pruyter
Netherlands
323 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 16:06:07
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You are right again Glenn! The valve order of a cast iron head is different from a alu one, but it is possible to use the cast iron block from an engine with a cast iron head in relation with a alu head. What you have to do is change the camshaft. I agree with you that it looks like that the second engine is a Hillman engine wich of course has a cast iron head.
What Jim needs to check is what kind of clutch came with the second engine en check if the gearbox is the original that was placed by Rootes in his Rapier. If the box is original and the clutch on the second engine is a diafragm clutch then it is imperative to change both the clutch fork and pedestal for the later one.
Regards,
Peter |
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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 21:56:02
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I shall hopefully be taking out the remains of the existing engine this weekend. I can then glean a little more information, by looking at the points you've outlined on the clutch/first motion shaft.
jim |
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pruyter
Netherlands
323 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 08:47:12
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It is easy to indentify your gearbox,if the reverse is situated to the left (away from the driver in a RHD-Rapier) the gearbox is the original one as installed by Rootes when this Rapier was built.
If on the other hand the reverse is to the right (inwards to the driver)it is a gearbox from a later Rapier (or other Rootes car) with a full synchromes gearbox which is working together with a diafragm clutch. If you have this gearbox then the next thing to do is check wether it is a fin spline or a coarse spline gearbox.
Regards,
Peter |
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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 14:21:49
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This is a continuing saga!
Firstly, I bought an engine from Balby motors in Doncaster. Carried it home (240 mile round journey) discovered excessive end float on the crank, removed sump, found one thrust washer lay in the sump, no sign of the other one, and crank and bearing housing badly ground away. To be fair to the lads at Balby, when I took it back, they gave me a generous part refund, and gave me another engine. This one checked at home as having no compression on number 3 cylinder. At this point I was not happy, older and wiser now. Next time I buy an engine, I'll take the means of checking it before paying for it! Battery, starter, jump leads and compression gauge etc. Can anyone confirm that this engine will get the car mobile?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291400680938?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It's a Humber Sceptre Mk2 1725 engine.
Incidentally my reverse gear is to the left, so hopefully this is something the previous owner hasn't messed with.
jim |
Edited by - jimlagos on 13 Mar 2015 14:23:05 |
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bigt80
United Kingdom
1052 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 15:03:35
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You've really had some hassle's!
This engine you've got a link to doesn't seem to be out of a MkII Sceptre because as far as I know, they were only ever fitted with Ali heads. Also their engine numbering was in the range starting B132000.....
Looks to me more like a MkIV Vogue, but then their numbering system was B774000.... It is certainly not Arrow as the water pump is for a pre-arrow range car.
However, and just to add confusion; the block looks to be made 1968, which would be 'Arrow' era. Engine No. doesn't help as I can't find any in that range. I was thinking later Minx, but they were not 1725! Oh, dear, not very reassuring. I doubt too that any car of the age of a MkII Sceptre would have done 37k: 137k more like - IMHO. Others may be able to help more than I have! G. |
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pruyter
Netherlands
323 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 15:40:16
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I have tried to open the link to ebay you have given but to no avail, so it is impossible for me to comment. The only thing I can deduct is that the engine must be a 1725 cc because it has it dipstick right in the engine block as you have mentioned. Secondly it has a cast iron head. Your engine number makes it difficult to detect what it is. If your engine number should have had 9 digits and the second number should be a 6 instead of a 0 then it is definitely a Hillman Minx series 6 which car has a 1725 cc engine with a cast iron head. As a coincidence in the late sixties I was driving such a car.
Well the second 6 could have been misread by you as a 0 if the number is not clearly visible. The thing that keeps confusing me is that your engine number has not 9 digits, or....you must have missed a digit.
Perhaps it is possible for you to upload some photos of your engine on this forum or you might PM me if that is easier. I don't know why my computer will not open the link you have provided.
Regards,
Peter |
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pruyter
Netherlands
323 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 16:02:35
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Hi Jim,
I have resolved the problem with my computer, so I was able to study the photo's. If I read the engine number correct it is:
B 011049310 and if that is the case it is a Hillman Minx of the Arrow range. I said before it is a 1725 engine because the dipstick is right in the engine block but of course that is only thrue for the Audax range to which your Rapier belongs. From that point in the Audax range, the start of the 1725 cc engine all the Rootes cars that followed in the Arrow range had their dipstick right in the engine block. So, again if I have red the engine number correctly, you have a 1500 cc engine from an Hillman Minx belonging to the Arrow range.
Please confirm if I have red the engine number correctly.
Regards,
Peter |
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pruyter
Netherlands
323 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 17:34:04
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Looking more and more at the pictures I see the front engine support plate and mounting rubbers which are used in the Audax range and with the waterpump from this range (as Glen obeserved) my guess is that this engine was installed in the mentioned Humber Sceptre MK 2 after that its original engine failed. So if you want to make your Rapier just drivable and the engine is okay then you could just do that.
But...I see that the clutch is a diafragm clutc and that means that you have to change both the clutch fork and the pedestal to make this work. You could take this parts from any car in the Arrow range or one from the late Audax range like cars as Sunbeam Alpine 4 A and 5, Rapier 4 A and 5, Humber MK 1 A and 2 and Singer Vogue.
You only need to check if the clutch driven plate has a coarse spline just as the gearbox in your Rapier. If this engine was really in a Humber Sceptre MK 2 the chances are very big that it is coarse spline because only the last few hundreds of this car became fine spline. But anyhow that is not a problem all the big suppliers are able to deliver you the right clutch driven plate if you need one.
Regards,
Peter |
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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 19:07:14
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Thank you everyone.
I reckon I owe a lot of beers to people if our paths cross. I'm on the verge of "information overload" but feeling a little more confident that I'll get the car moveable in a few weeks. I'll take this engine, clutch shouldn't be a problem as I have been accumulating them from the failed engines that I bought! I should also have the correct clutch on the old engine, still in my car.
I'm going to have my hands full even when the car is mobile, correcting things that this chap (who I bought it off) had messed with. I hope that he never "serviced" the brakes or suspension, but they will be properly checked.
Jim
jim |
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RapierPhil
United Kingdom
23 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 21:24:10
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Hi Jim
Just read your post, might be able to help out a bit as I have recently finished restoring a Series 1V and have a few spares left. I was going to post a picture but not got the hang of it!.
My car has a 1725 Hunter engine, I got this confirmed by the Rootes Archive Trust who also confirmed the exact model and year. As mentioned above the Hunter engine was originally mounted at an angle so you need to allow for this with the marking on the dipstick. If you want to give me a ring with what you want I will let you know if I can help. 01673 8432978. Good luck! Phil |
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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2015 : 16:32:12
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Thanks Phil
I'm now looking at a car with a big "hole" under the bonnet. This engine should be arriving Monday the 23rd, and hopefully I can fit the engine and then it's all downhill? (optimist)
As I look at all things under the bonnet, it proves what a butcher the previous owner was. Bolts forced into wrong threads and generally a shambles. The scrap engine had a diaphragm clutch, as this newish one has, so hopefully no problem there. The downpipe is the shorter one, so I can't get the first exhaust box to clear the underside of the car. The list goes on. I must write a book except nobody would believe it.
jim |
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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2015 : 00:14:08
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Continuing saga...
I've now taken delivery of an engine that I found on Ebay. While preparing it for installation I discovered that the block was cracked, apparently from frost damage! Fortunately it was bought from an Ebay vendor, and he's being more than fair, I now have three engines, although not really Rapier genuine lumps, I could conceivably make one good one from the lot! I'm starting to get a little disillusioned about this car, however I WILL forge on and get this vehicle mobile. My sons are harassing me to install a Zetec Ford engine and type 9 gearbox, but I'm not convinced. I hope you people will have patience and "watch this space" until I emerge triumphant from this heap of engine bits with a drivable car. I still like the looks of a Sunbeam Rapier Series 4, and will prevail.
jim |
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jimlagos
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2015 : 00:15:17
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P.S
Don't tell my wife how much I'm spending, please.
jim |
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Topic |
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Newly acquired Rapier.
