| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 17 Nov 2020 : 16:04:10
Hello Sunbeams, I hope everyone is well.
Series 3, O/drive, 1725cc Alpine engine.
I own 6161PO which was lovingly restored by Neil Cridland about 20 years ago, and then subsequently 'modified' (but sadly butchered in some cases) by later owners. However it does run beautifully.
I am busy trying to undo aforementioned treatment, and return things to standard, or sympathetic upgrade status. But the overdrive wiring has me stumped.
It works correctly in so far as it protects itself from engagement in 1st, 2nd and reverse, great.
The stalk (not the correct one, but it will do) is of the switch/ two position, type.
The stalk indicates the reverse of what is actually happening (direct drive = O/D selected, and vice versa.).
All the wires run through ONE terminal of the relay, (so the relay is just a connector block).
The Relay says 6RA but has an extra c3 terminal, but I have a spare which is correct, that I will use.
Only ONE wire disappears underneath towards the gearbox.
Finally the question:
Is it possible that someone has made it work by connecting the Solenoid to the gearbox isolator and then to Earth? Thus only requiring one wire from the gearbox to the relay.
Obviously I will be able to check by poking around underneath the gearbox, but I'm still waiting for my new ramps to arrive. And I thought one of our Gurus might know if the theory is correct.
Thank you.
p.s.
Just out of interest, the dealer I bought it from had the Overdrive rebuilt at great expense earlier this year by Hardy Engineering, who only added the note - "O/D switch upside down".
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Commerlad |
Posted - 29 Apr 2021 : 16:50:05
See this topic for the reasoning behind my statement for positioning of warning lamp supply
http://www.sunbeamrapier.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2204
Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up! |
| Commerlad |
Posted - 02 Feb 2021 : 11:22:29
Glad you got there in the end.
Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up! |
| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 11:41:56
Hello everybody.
Postscript to reinstalling a recognisable Rootes overdrive circuit.
Thanks for everyones input.
It's taken a while due to waiting for new ramps, various other components, and a virus (not THE virus).
After testing the two? relays that were already on the car, (following the instructions posted, thank you) the older type passed but I didn't need it. The more recent one failed. I opened it up (suggestion posted, thanks) and it turned out to be the wrong type, close but no cigar..
The new correct relay appears to be made of unobtainium.
So I bought a new Lucas SRB111 and some electronic components (diode and resistor). I studiously followed a posting from the SAOCA by Thomas Hayden found using Google, converting the relay to what I required, and replicating the original.
I have completely rewired the overdrive, as per Rootes wiring diagram. Correctly coloured wires throughout, bullet connectors and spades as appropriate. With everything sheathed. The expensive e.bay three position stalk has replaced what turned out to be an Austin two position version. The stalk is actually Alpine but correctly wired (colours etc.) And I have 'chromed' the black Alpine stalk, using modelling chrome/silver leaf. It all works perfectly, protecting overdrive from 1st., 2nd., and reverse. And (what started the whole project off), 'direct drive' now means 'direct drive' and vice versa. The wiring on the firewall is significantly neater, plus the full amperage no longer comes through the stalk, as it had done with the massive bodge set up that came on the car. The only 'giveaway' is a small non standard resistor earthing the relay. I can't thank people enough for sharing their knowledge. |
| pruyter |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 20:49:42
Just keep the wiring as explained in WSM 124 and all should be okay! |
| Commerlad |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 15:56:33
I said C1 as that would show a supply to the overdrive solenoid, If it is connected to W2 then that would show a supply to the relay but in the case of the later relay not that the relay had operated to supply C2 and then the overdrive solenoid.
Also if a lamp is fitted and lit then the overdrive is getting a supply, if this is lit at any point other than when in 3rd or 4th then stop as overdrive damage may ( is likely to ) occur.
Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up! |
| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 11:20:15
My 'new' three position overdrive stalk has just arrived.
[side note] purchased from e.bay (1) my wife is a very bad influence and (2) it cost almost exactly what Mike 'parts God' Langley said it would cost.
The new correctly coloured wiring has already arrived, so just (still) waiting for my new ramps and the white warning lamp and I'll get on with it.
Again thanks everybody.
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| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 11:13:35
quote:
Originally posted by pruyter
To start with: WSM 124 doesn't show that the lead is coming from W2, what it shows is that the connection is made between the overdrive switch via the light switch to the warning lamp and then to earth. W2 is fed from the overdrive switch.
Making the connection between the warning lamp and C1 will work also, but why changing the original system which works? You have already had the experience of an wiring system which is not original at all which have caused you some confusion. So think about the next owner who might be confronted with a non original wiring. There is not any advantage to gain by making a connection with C1 although it will work.
Next thing I have to mention is that I made a mistake with the plug button in the dashbord. The confusion is caused by the fact that Rootes did fit a plug button when it regarded the Alpine and even my Tiger shows this plug button while a Tiger has never had an overdrive. Having been working rather much with Alpines I automatically assumed that Rootes would have acted consistent with their other cars which turns out to be not the case. Sorry for the confusion I have caused!
Regards,
Peter
Yes Peter, thanks.
I appreciate the finer difference, but it was quicker to write it's connected to W2 as this is the only relay terminal that has any connection to the the warning light in the WSM diagram. Also as I understand it, it shows via the dotted line and note (A) that the Rapier and Alpine IV didn't involve the lighting switch.
And I ask the question, is it a more modern solution, because, whilst I can see it's different, I am interested in greater understanding, particularly from people with superior knowledge than me..
As you say I am working my way through the perils of non standard, 'creative engineering' and I think it makes everything twice as difficult and daunting (enge stront). The result is I want to stick either to, as 'standard' as possible or very importantly, sympathetic, inteligent and neat upgrade i.e. anything that makes it safer, more reliable, more usable, longer lived or fixes it when 'original' simply isn't available.
So I appreciate your concern, and value your input, it's all good.
Thanks again, everybody. |
| pruyter |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 09:56:50
To start with: WSM 124 doesn't show that the lead is coming from W2, what it shows is that the connection is made between the overdrive switch via the light switch to the warning lamp and then to earth. W2 is fed from the overdrive switch.
Making the connection between the warning lamp and C1 will work also, but why changing the original system which works? You have already had the experience of an wiring system which is not original at all which have caused you some confusion. So think about the next owner who might be confronted with a non original wiring. There is not any advantage to gain by making a connection with C1 although it will work.
Next thing I have to mention is that I made a mistake with the plug button in the dashbord. The confusion is caused by the fact that Rootes did fit a plug button when it regarded the Alpine and even my Tiger shows this plug button while a Tiger has never had an overdrive. Having been working rather much with Alpines I automatically assumed that Rootes would have acted consistent with their other cars which turns out to be not the case. Sorry for the confusion I have caused!
Regards,
Peter |
| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 23:08:34
quote:
Originally posted by Commerlad
If you do fit a warning lamp it should be fed from C1 in either case.
Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up!
Hello, that's added to my confusion. My wiring diagram in WSM says from W2, is C1 a better more 'modern thinking' solution? |
| Commerlad |
Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 18:20:27
If you do fit a warning lamp it should be fed from C1 in either case.
Sometimes I think laterally, but then I have to get up! |
| pruyter |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 13:43:13
That is really strange because Rootes drilled those holes and filled them with either a warning lamp or, regarding non overdrive cars, a little black plug. By doing so they could treat the dashbords for overdrive and non overdrive cars in the same way.
I have to admitt that "weir" is for me also a word that is new to me, so in this respect I am no different from my countrymen.
I found for skip in the dictionary different meanings but not your translation "container bouwen". I only know this word as something like delete.
regards,
Peter |
| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 11:55:06
quote:
Originally posted by pruyter
Hi Terry,
Regarding the term "bodge" I was fully aware what it means. How could I not when reading magazines like Practical Classics for about 30 years.
So now you know that the overdrive warning lamp is situated at the right upper side of your speedo! Did you already discover the little black plastic plug which covers the hole in the dashbord?
If you need more pictures of my Rapier in order to clarify something so just say so and I will provide them.
Regards,
Peter
Ahh yes. 
My car doesn't have the hole in the dash (being a non overdrive S3 perhaps, not sure?), and I'm far too much of a chicken to drill one. There is a period style switch/warning light bracket attached to the bottom edge of the wooden dash with the screen washer plunger and an empty hole, so I'll use that.
Thanks again.
Terry
p.s. Other words that regularly foxed them despite fantastic English- Skip (Container bouwen) and Weir (Stuw/Stuwdam).
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| pruyter |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 10:49:30
Hi Terry,
Regarding the term "bodge" I was fully aware what it means. How could I not when reading magazines like Practical Classics for about 30 years.
So now you know that the overdrive warning lamp is situated at the right upper side of your speedo! Did you already discover the little black plastic plug which covers the hole in the dashbord?
If you need more pictures of my Rapier in order to clarify something so just say so and I will provide them.
Regards,
Peter |
| Mr A.the Hun |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 10:39:05
quote:
Originally posted by pruyter
Here you see the warning light on the dashbord of my Rapier series IV
Thanks again Peter, the funny thing is your photo prompted me to think about something else entirely and I was able to undo another bodge (slechte reparatie ((not many of my Dutch colleagues would understand 'bodge' if I said it)) ).
By a long chain of thought, having looked at the photo, I realised that my RHD car has the speedo and rev counter mounted incorrectly left/right. I recently changed the speedo cable as the old one was too tight, awkwardly routed and causing the speedo to sit at a slight angle. I figured out that someone had fitted a non overdrive speedo cable, but even with the new cable, better routing and a little slack, the speedo was still being held at a slight angle on its springs inside the bezel. Then I saw your LHD photo, and that got me thinking. So I checked out as many photos of RHD cars as I could find and realised, mine were the wrong way round. Another step forward, thanks.
Other peoples knowledge and experience and the Internet, brilliant. |
| pruyter |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 11:46:47
Here you see the warning light on the dashbord of my Rapier series IV |
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